I removed the post that Sean put up earlier which was causing such controversy. I didn’t want the discussion to keep revolving around one person’s tattoos because we don’t know if that person is a racist or just an idiot (if it’s the first then it looks like the answer would be both).
Shannon and I have been discussing the post via email earlier and he reminded me of this old post of a Hitler portrait from a tattooer in Singapore. As it stands now and has been the policy for years, racist and hategroup tattoos go into the Political Section of BME. Similar to the Animal Tattoo & Piercing sections, we don’t support it but BME’s mandate is to archive and catalog the evolution and history of our community, even the ignorant aspects of it. However, that doesn’t expand to other parts of BME like IAM.
IAM’s long standing TOS states the following:
“IAM is a community built around principles of tolerance. You may not post hatespeech (race, gender, or sexuality-based attacks). This includes use of terms like “gay” or “fag” or “kike” in a derogatory manner, even in jest. This rule is very strict, and extends to racist codes and iconography (“14″, “88″, and so on), as well as NSBM and racist band lists and so on. This includes verifiable offsite posts. To be very clear about this: if you are a bigot, onsite or off, stay off IAM. This is not a ban on racism. This is a total ban on bigots.”
This begs the question as far as political commentary on racist tattoos. I personally don’t want to see them get any more attention than they deserve, which is why they’re generally quietly filed away, along with other ill advised modifications. We can’t sit back and pretend that they don’t exist but we also don’t need to give them any room in the spot light that is Modblog.
As both Sean and I have said in the comments section, neither of us recognized the tattoo as a Totenkopf. At first glance I thought it was three skulls because you couldn’t see the entire tattoo. I was sent some messages stating that the racist aspect of the tattoo should be ignored because it wasn’t the focus of the post. The focus of the post was the small boobs and not tattoos. I don’t agree with that line of thinking. One of the other reasons we can’t flat out reject racist tattoos is that we simply don’t have the manpower to be fully adept at all the secret racist codes out there. As none of the staff on BME are racists, we don’t know the secret handshakes. So we try to file the tattoos where they belong. Maybe it would be more helpful if racists grew balls and weren’t so embarrased by their beliefs that they have to disguise them.
The reasoning for this post was to give you guys a post to comment on that wasn’t attacking a specific individual. So let your thoughts fly.
Comments
303 responses to “The politics of Body Modification?”
Bob, I’ll respond to that because I was the one who made the decision initially to include these images.
It was my feeling that rejecting images from the main image galleries of BME was problematic for three reasons:
1. Censoring really does have the potential to become slippery slope, and to be unevenly applied. Where is the line drawn? Whose politics are OK and whose are not? How do we explain this rule so people know what’s OK and what’s not? This was even more true when it was me running it because my politics tended to be more extremist than the current BME team (some will recall my militant vegan period)… So I set the policy that for the main galleries, and the main galleries alone (not IAM, not ModBlog), these tattoos could be included.
2. With BME’s role being to document the community, it’s important to include “racist” and otherwise difficult tattoos… To show how many people are doing it, what sort of trends exist in these subcultures, and so on. To a lesser extent to show the world which shops are doing these tattoos so they can avoid them (or patronize them I suppose). I think it’s disingenuous to try and manipulate the demographics of the community to give a false impression. In addition, keeping the “rotten apples” visible shows people that we still have to work inside our own walls to make the world a better and more enlightened place.
3. Because of the “secret codes” that are rampant in racist subculture, it’s unrealistic to attempt to try and censor. It means you end up missing a lot of images and letting some slip through (as well as some “false positives”), and it means that a racist subculture bubbles secretly under the surface rather than being visible. To me this is more dangerous that seeing it out in the open.
Anyway, these were the original justifications for including racist tattoos in the politics section. All things considered — and there is no answer that’s going to make everyone happy, nor is there an answer that’s going to make ME completely happy because there are pros and cons in each — I am happy with the compromise that I made and I continue to stand by it… Although of course Rachel is welcome to change it if she feels there is a better solution (and like I said, there are good arguments for everything in the spectrum of possibilities). But I hope the above helps explain why it was originally instituted.
Bob, I’ll respond to that because I was the one who made the decision initially to include these images.
It was my feeling that rejecting images from the main image galleries of BME was problematic for three reasons:
1. Censoring really does have the potential to become slippery slope, and to be unevenly applied. Where is the line drawn? Whose politics are OK and whose are not? How do we explain this rule so people know what’s OK and what’s not? This was even more true when it was me running it because my politics tended to be more extremist than the current BME team (some will recall my militant vegan period)… So I set the policy that for the main galleries, and the main galleries alone (not IAM, not ModBlog), these tattoos could be included.
2. With BME’s role being to document the community, it’s important to include “racist” and otherwise difficult tattoos… To show how many people are doing it, what sort of trends exist in these subcultures, and so on. To a lesser extent to show the world which shops are doing these tattoos so they can avoid them (or patronize them I suppose). I think it’s disingenuous to try and manipulate the demographics of the community to give a false impression. In addition, keeping the “rotten apples” visible shows people that we still have to work inside our own walls to make the world a better and more enlightened place.
3. Because of the “secret codes” that are rampant in racist subculture, it’s unrealistic to attempt to try and censor. It means you end up missing a lot of images and letting some slip through (as well as some “false positives”), and it means that a racist subculture bubbles secretly under the surface rather than being visible. To me this is more dangerous that seeing it out in the open.
Anyway, these were the original justifications for including racist tattoos in the politics section. All things considered — and there is no answer that’s going to make everyone happy, nor is there an answer that’s going to make ME completely happy because there are pros and cons in each — I am happy with the compromise that I made and I continue to stand by it… Although of course Rachel is welcome to change it if she feels there is a better solution (and like I said, there are good arguments for everything in the spectrum of possibilities). But I hope the above helps explain why it was originally instituted.
sorry if this has already been stated, but i stopped reading around comment 34 or 35…
BME, in my opinion, is a place for unity; for people to come together who have a love for modifying the body. not a place to bitch and whine because a tattoo that symbolizes hate was taken down. I am strongly against censorship; but as stated many times by many people, there is a difference between censoring tities, and deleting a post that will offend shit loads of us. i am a tattoo artist, and the only thing i refuse to do (aside from facial/neck/hand tattoos on anyone who isnt already heavily modified) are racist/sexist/homophobic, etc tattoos. Anything thats going to blatantly offend someone else. I feel everyone has the right to say and do what you please, until the point comes where it infringes upon other people. granted, theres the whole ‘if you dont like it, dont pay attention’ sentiment, but sometimes its just best to avoid the spread of hate.
from a business prospective, i understand why it was taken down. if i as a patron believed BME as a whole, or even its staff, to be racist, or nazi sympathizers even, i would probably stop coming to and contributing to the site… as im sure plenty of others would, too….
cant we all just stop the bitching and remember that were all here for the same reason…?
sorry if this has already been stated, but i stopped reading around comment 34 or 35…
BME, in my opinion, is a place for unity; for people to come together who have a love for modifying the body. not a place to bitch and whine because a tattoo that symbolizes hate was taken down. I am strongly against censorship; but as stated many times by many people, there is a difference between censoring tities, and deleting a post that will offend shit loads of us. i am a tattoo artist, and the only thing i refuse to do (aside from facial/neck/hand tattoos on anyone who isnt already heavily modified) are racist/sexist/homophobic, etc tattoos. Anything thats going to blatantly offend someone else. I feel everyone has the right to say and do what you please, until the point comes where it infringes upon other people. granted, theres the whole ‘if you dont like it, dont pay attention’ sentiment, but sometimes its just best to avoid the spread of hate.
from a business prospective, i understand why it was taken down. if i as a patron believed BME as a whole, or even its staff, to be racist, or nazi sympathizers even, i would probably stop coming to and contributing to the site… as im sure plenty of others would, too….
cant we all just stop the bitching and remember that were all here for the same reason…?
sorry if this has already been stated, but i stopped reading around comment 34 or 35…
BME, in my opinion, is a place for unity; for people to come together who have a love for modifying the body. not a place to bitch and whine because a tattoo that symbolizes hate was taken down. I am strongly against censorship; but as stated many times by many people, there is a difference between censoring tities, and deleting a post that will offend shit loads of us. i am a tattoo artist, and the only thing i refuse to do (aside from facial/neck/hand tattoos on anyone who isnt already heavily modified) are racist/sexist/homophobic, etc tattoos. Anything thats going to blatantly offend someone else. I feel everyone has the right to say and do what you please, until the point comes where it infringes upon other people. granted, theres the whole ‘if you dont like it, dont pay attention’ sentiment, but sometimes its just best to avoid the spread of hate.
from a business prospective, i understand why it was taken down. if i as a patron believed BME as a whole, or even its staff, to be racist, or nazi sympathizers even, i would probably stop coming to and contributing to the site… as im sure plenty of others would, too….
cant we all just stop the bitching and remember that were all here for the same reason…?
This boils down to the same subject again and again.
I want all of the various aspects of body modification to be archived and stored for all the world to see. This means the good, the bad and even the ugly.
However, just as I wouldn’t showcase really poorly done work (unless it was in the context of “Hey! This is really bad stuff”) on Modblog. I don’t need to showcase the bad and ugly things about the community.
IAM also is a gated community for a reason. We get to choose who our “neighbors” are. I don’t want racists or homophobes on the site. It’s been a long standing rule. I personally like that I don’t have to read people’s pages where they call someone “gay” or a “fag” or drop N-bombs every other word.
BME strives to be a historical archive.
Modblog is where we post photos/videos/stories etc from submissions that we like.
IAM is a country club/gated community. We have rules in order to be allowed in.
411.BME is a mod shop directory service.
Ask.BME is where people can ask questions.
Shop.BME is where you buy stuff to support BME (hint hint!)
Plus all the other facets of BME that have their distinctive purposes.
I would really love it if we could all move on and enjoy the holidays instead of having this continuing debate which at this point feels more like a circle jerk than a productive conversation.
This boils down to the same subject again and again.
I want all of the various aspects of body modification to be archived and stored for all the world to see. This means the good, the bad and even the ugly.
However, just as I wouldn’t showcase really poorly done work (unless it was in the context of “Hey! This is really bad stuff”) on Modblog. I don’t need to showcase the bad and ugly things about the community.
IAM also is a gated community for a reason. We get to choose who our “neighbors” are. I don’t want racists or homophobes on the site. It’s been a long standing rule. I personally like that I don’t have to read people’s pages where they call someone “gay” or a “fag” or drop N-bombs every other word.
BME strives to be a historical archive.
Modblog is where we post photos/videos/stories etc from submissions that we like.
IAM is a country club/gated community. We have rules in order to be allowed in.
411.BME is a mod shop directory service.
Ask.BME is where people can ask questions.
Shop.BME is where you buy stuff to support BME (hint hint!)
Plus all the other facets of BME that have their distinctive purposes.
I would really love it if we could all move on and enjoy the holidays instead of having this continuing debate which at this point feels more like a circle jerk than a productive conversation.
This boils down to the same subject again and again.
I want all of the various aspects of body modification to be archived and stored for all the world to see. This means the good, the bad and even the ugly.
However, just as I wouldn’t showcase really poorly done work (unless it was in the context of “Hey! This is really bad stuff”) on Modblog. I don’t need to showcase the bad and ugly things about the community.
IAM also is a gated community for a reason. We get to choose who our “neighbors” are. I don’t want racists or homophobes on the site. It’s been a long standing rule. I personally like that I don’t have to read people’s pages where they call someone “gay” or a “fag” or drop N-bombs every other word.
BME strives to be a historical archive.
Modblog is where we post photos/videos/stories etc from submissions that we like.
IAM is a country club/gated community. We have rules in order to be allowed in.
411.BME is a mod shop directory service.
Ask.BME is where people can ask questions.
Shop.BME is where you buy stuff to support BME (hint hint!)
Plus all the other facets of BME that have their distinctive purposes.
I would really love it if we could all move on and enjoy the holidays instead of having this continuing debate which at this point feels more like a circle jerk than a productive conversation.
I don’t really have much to say about this. I don’t think the wearer should be proud of how ‘edgy’ or ‘ironic’ she’s being having a totenkopf tattooed between her tits. It’s easy for a kid of 20 to claim to be of Jewish descent and get this tattooed… but never actually live or suffer through a war.
Try showing it to your Jewish grandma and see what she says about it.
It’s one thing to walk around shouting the N word because you hear it in all the rap songs, and another to get (as Shannon pointed out) a ‘line for line’ totenkopf tattoo, still used as an image by modern white pride groups all over the world.
I don’t really have much to say about this. I don’t think the wearer should be proud of how ‘edgy’ or ‘ironic’ she’s being having a totenkopf tattooed between her tits. It’s easy for a kid of 20 to claim to be of Jewish descent and get this tattooed… but never actually live or suffer through a war.
Try showing it to your Jewish grandma and see what she says about it.
It’s one thing to walk around shouting the N word because you hear it in all the rap songs, and another to get (as Shannon pointed out) a ‘line for line’ totenkopf tattoo, still used as an image by modern white pride groups all over the world.
I don’t really have much to say about this. I don’t think the wearer should be proud of how ‘edgy’ or ‘ironic’ she’s being having a totenkopf tattooed between her tits. It’s easy for a kid of 20 to claim to be of Jewish descent and get this tattooed… but never actually live or suffer through a war.
Try showing it to your Jewish grandma and see what she says about it.
It’s one thing to walk around shouting the N word because you hear it in all the rap songs, and another to get (as Shannon pointed out) a ‘line for line’ totenkopf tattoo, still used as an image by modern white pride groups all over the world.
I don’t really think it’s necessary to add anything further at this point, but I just wanted to say: Rachel, your point is more than valid.
There is a vast difference between documenting/archiving something, and condoning it.
Well done. You guys all do a wonderful job in keeping BME as an archive and reserving Modblog for the ‘cream of the crop’ (subjective as it may be).
There are lots of us who appreciate all the work you put in for us to enjoy being part of this community, so don’t listen to the crap.
Just my two cents.
🙂
I don’t really think it’s necessary to add anything further at this point, but I just wanted to say: Rachel, your point is more than valid.
There is a vast difference between documenting/archiving something, and condoning it.
Well done. You guys all do a wonderful job in keeping BME as an archive and reserving Modblog for the ‘cream of the crop’ (subjective as it may be).
There are lots of us who appreciate all the work you put in for us to enjoy being part of this community, so don’t listen to the crap.
Just my two cents.
🙂
I don’t really think it’s necessary to add anything further at this point, but I just wanted to say: Rachel, your point is more than valid.
There is a vast difference between documenting/archiving something, and condoning it.
Well done. You guys all do a wonderful job in keeping BME as an archive and reserving Modblog for the ‘cream of the crop’ (subjective as it may be).
There are lots of us who appreciate all the work you put in for us to enjoy being part of this community, so don’t listen to the crap.
Just my two cents.
🙂
so….no Louis Farrakhan portraits then? No Geronimo tattoos? No Stalin memorials?
I think “racism” is subjective. We all have our heroes and villains. Is it right to remove them from BME? It’s not my sandbox. If it were, I wouldn’t. I always enjoy dark humor and irony.
On the flipside, i think branding someone a racist, bigot or homophobe is very ugly. We don’t know the circumstances or intent when she got that tattoo so it’s wrong to generealize and say “well because sometimes people tattoo X on themselves and it really means Y …etc”.
tiff badhairdo – yeah lets ban everyone who has tattoos, ideas or beliefs that don’t agree with ours. i think someone else had an idea like that one time…….
Hanargh- its also kind of easy to say that when you weren’t in that war either.
Also, it’s 10 years in to the new millenium, can’t we find a new group to all agree to dislike?
so….no Louis Farrakhan portraits then? No Geronimo tattoos? No Stalin memorials?
I think “racism” is subjective. We all have our heroes and villains. Is it right to remove them from BME? It’s not my sandbox. If it were, I wouldn’t. I always enjoy dark humor and irony.
On the flipside, i think branding someone a racist, bigot or homophobe is very ugly. We don’t know the circumstances or intent when she got that tattoo so it’s wrong to generealize and say “well because sometimes people tattoo X on themselves and it really means Y …etc”.
tiff badhairdo – yeah lets ban everyone who has tattoos, ideas or beliefs that don’t agree with ours. i think someone else had an idea like that one time…….
Hanargh- its also kind of easy to say that when you weren’t in that war either.
Also, it’s 10 years in to the new millenium, can’t we find a new group to all agree to dislike?
so….no Louis Farrakhan portraits then? No Geronimo tattoos? No Stalin memorials?
I think “racism” is subjective. We all have our heroes and villains. Is it right to remove them from BME? It’s not my sandbox. If it were, I wouldn’t. I always enjoy dark humor and irony.
On the flipside, i think branding someone a racist, bigot or homophobe is very ugly. We don’t know the circumstances or intent when she got that tattoo so it’s wrong to generealize and say “well because sometimes people tattoo X on themselves and it really means Y …etc”.
tiff badhairdo – yeah lets ban everyone who has tattoos, ideas or beliefs that don’t agree with ours. i think someone else had an idea like that one time…….
Hanargh- its also kind of easy to say that when you weren’t in that war either.
Also, it’s 10 years in to the new millenium, can’t we find a new group to all agree to dislike?
I just want to say I could not agree more with the idea that there’s a difference between cataloguing and condoning.
It’s not censorship to choose not to feature an image of a hateful symbol, even if you do know that the hateful symbol was chosen for shits and giggles (and from the above, I’m not entirely convinced it was.)
But I do think it is regrettable not to document such tattoos. Pretending people don’t do something objectionable leaves gaps in recorded history, and that’s a shame. Having a record of something is not condoning it. If we thought that, many of us would not know that Nazism even happened at all, because it would have been expunged from the history we learn as “too horrible for decent people to hear about.”
I just want to say I could not agree more with the idea that there’s a difference between cataloguing and condoning.
It’s not censorship to choose not to feature an image of a hateful symbol, even if you do know that the hateful symbol was chosen for shits and giggles (and from the above, I’m not entirely convinced it was.)
But I do think it is regrettable not to document such tattoos. Pretending people don’t do something objectionable leaves gaps in recorded history, and that’s a shame. Having a record of something is not condoning it. If we thought that, many of us would not know that Nazism even happened at all, because it would have been expunged from the history we learn as “too horrible for decent people to hear about.”
I just want to say I could not agree more with the idea that there’s a difference between cataloguing and condoning.
It’s not censorship to choose not to feature an image of a hateful symbol, even if you do know that the hateful symbol was chosen for shits and giggles (and from the above, I’m not entirely convinced it was.)
But I do think it is regrettable not to document such tattoos. Pretending people don’t do something objectionable leaves gaps in recorded history, and that’s a shame. Having a record of something is not condoning it. If we thought that, many of us would not know that Nazism even happened at all, because it would have been expunged from the history we learn as “too horrible for decent people to hear about.”
if people are getting hate tattoo for “shits and giggles” then it really shows how stupid she is and you are for thinking it.
if people are getting hate tattoo for “shits and giggles” then it really shows how stupid she is and you are for thinking it.
if people are getting hate tattoo for “shits and giggles” then it really shows how stupid she is and you are for thinking it.
Knowing the “secret handshakes”: Anti-Defamation League has pages describing various (Neo-)Nazi/hate group/racist/bigot symbols and codes, http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default.asp
Knowing the “secret handshakes”: Anti-Defamation League has pages describing various (Neo-)Nazi/hate group/racist/bigot symbols and codes, http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default.asp
Knowing the “secret handshakes”: Anti-Defamation League has pages describing various (Neo-)Nazi/hate group/racist/bigot symbols and codes, http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default.asp
The complete joke she is making out of it is extremely disheartening to me.
It makes me think about the motives behind it. Whether it be for attention or out of complete ignorance of the issue she is taking so lightly.
I really hope this isn’t the direction our already narcissistic society is going towards.
The complete joke she is making out of it is extremely disheartening to me.
It makes me think about the motives behind it. Whether it be for attention or out of complete ignorance of the issue she is taking so lightly.
I really hope this isn’t the direction our already narcissistic society is going towards.
The complete joke she is making out of it is extremely disheartening to me.
It makes me think about the motives behind it. Whether it be for attention or out of complete ignorance of the issue she is taking so lightly.
I really hope this isn’t the direction our already narcissistic society is going towards.
Timmy, I don’t understand what you’re getting at really.
So yah, none of us were in that war. But I like to assume we’ve all been educated to some degree about the horrors that went on. The totenkopf is a horrible image which probably brings pain to Jewish people even today due what it symbolises. I also know it’s still widely used in ‘white pride’ groups, who show it off proudly. The girl claims to have Jewish family. If that’s the case, she should have left the irony to Shakespeare.
As for ‘meaning’, throw your xs and your ys out of the window because when someone gets a tattoo there is as much importance on how other people INTERPRET it, as to what it means to them personally. She’s pretty dumb if she thought people would appreciate, or even understand, the humor, irony, or whatever she was aiming for.
Interpretation is key. Say if you went out and got the words ‘HIV positive’ tattooed on your forearm. It could mean something completely different to you in your head or in your circle of friends. Or you could get it to be ironic because I’m you’re HIV positive… but to the outside world, there’d be a HUGE stigma attached to it. Did she really understand how upset it might make a very wide and varied community, let alone the general public?
I’m all for people getting the tattoos they want and like. I have no problem with people getting ‘slut’ tattooed above their genitals, or even pornographic images… they’re not to my taste but if it makes people happy and they don’t go around showing it off to kids then fine. What I do object to is such a blase attitute towards a symbol which represents years of murder.
I’d also like to know why on her iam page she lists her tattoo as ‘skull on my sternum’. Why couldn’t she be a bit more specific and write ‘totenkopf on my sternum’ if she knew exactly what it was and all its political and social implications?
Timmy, I don’t understand what you’re getting at really.
So yah, none of us were in that war. But I like to assume we’ve all been educated to some degree about the horrors that went on. The totenkopf is a horrible image which probably brings pain to Jewish people even today due what it symbolises. I also know it’s still widely used in ‘white pride’ groups, who show it off proudly. The girl claims to have Jewish family. If that’s the case, she should have left the irony to Shakespeare.
As for ‘meaning’, throw your xs and your ys out of the window because when someone gets a tattoo there is as much importance on how other people INTERPRET it, as to what it means to them personally. She’s pretty dumb if she thought people would appreciate, or even understand, the humor, irony, or whatever she was aiming for.
Interpretation is key. Say if you went out and got the words ‘HIV positive’ tattooed on your forearm. It could mean something completely different to you in your head or in your circle of friends. Or you could get it to be ironic because I’m you’re HIV positive… but to the outside world, there’d be a HUGE stigma attached to it. Did she really understand how upset it might make a very wide and varied community, let alone the general public?
I’m all for people getting the tattoos they want and like. I have no problem with people getting ‘slut’ tattooed above their genitals, or even pornographic images… they’re not to my taste but if it makes people happy and they don’t go around showing it off to kids then fine. What I do object to is such a blase attitute towards a symbol which represents years of murder.
I’d also like to know why on her iam page she lists her tattoo as ‘skull on my sternum’. Why couldn’t she be a bit more specific and write ‘totenkopf on my sternum’ if she knew exactly what it was and all its political and social implications?
Timmy, I don’t understand what you’re getting at really.
So yah, none of us were in that war. But I like to assume we’ve all been educated to some degree about the horrors that went on. The totenkopf is a horrible image which probably brings pain to Jewish people even today due what it symbolises. I also know it’s still widely used in ‘white pride’ groups, who show it off proudly. The girl claims to have Jewish family. If that’s the case, she should have left the irony to Shakespeare.
As for ‘meaning’, throw your xs and your ys out of the window because when someone gets a tattoo there is as much importance on how other people INTERPRET it, as to what it means to them personally. She’s pretty dumb if she thought people would appreciate, or even understand, the humor, irony, or whatever she was aiming for.
Interpretation is key. Say if you went out and got the words ‘HIV positive’ tattooed on your forearm. It could mean something completely different to you in your head or in your circle of friends. Or you could get it to be ironic because I’m you’re HIV positive… but to the outside world, there’d be a HUGE stigma attached to it. Did she really understand how upset it might make a very wide and varied community, let alone the general public?
I’m all for people getting the tattoos they want and like. I have no problem with people getting ‘slut’ tattooed above their genitals, or even pornographic images… they’re not to my taste but if it makes people happy and they don’t go around showing it off to kids then fine. What I do object to is such a blase attitute towards a symbol which represents years of murder.
I’d also like to know why on her iam page she lists her tattoo as ‘skull on my sternum’. Why couldn’t she be a bit more specific and write ‘totenkopf on my sternum’ if she knew exactly what it was and all its political and social implications?
The simple fact that this discussion would never have happened unless the image was posted, is argument enough to convince me that these things should indeed be posted in future, and fully discussed in this way. The fact that bme may post sexist artwork, tattoos which mock various beliefs, and swastikas, is a way of raising awareness about how we’ve come to define these symbols, and the collective reaction to them says a whole lot about the nature of this community, its tolerance and its dislike for racism, sexism, and the like.
What a good debate this has been to read along with (at times). Food for thought for sure.
The simple fact that this discussion would never have happened unless the image was posted, is argument enough to convince me that these things should indeed be posted in future, and fully discussed in this way. The fact that bme may post sexist artwork, tattoos which mock various beliefs, and swastikas, is a way of raising awareness about how we’ve come to define these symbols, and the collective reaction to them says a whole lot about the nature of this community, its tolerance and its dislike for racism, sexism, and the like.
What a good debate this has been to read along with (at times). Food for thought for sure.
The simple fact that this discussion would never have happened unless the image was posted, is argument enough to convince me that these things should indeed be posted in future, and fully discussed in this way. The fact that bme may post sexist artwork, tattoos which mock various beliefs, and swastikas, is a way of raising awareness about how we’ve come to define these symbols, and the collective reaction to them says a whole lot about the nature of this community, its tolerance and its dislike for racism, sexism, and the like.
What a good debate this has been to read along with (at times). Food for thought for sure.
oh and rachel, in #86…you do realize that the sheer volume of pinup-type images, sexual objectification, and more controversial tattoos in modblog should all, technically, qualify as sexist?
Personally I do not mind having people I disagree with as neighbors.
oh and rachel, in #86…you do realize that the sheer volume of pinup-type images, sexual objectification, and more controversial tattoos in modblog should all, technically, qualify as sexist?
Personally I do not mind having people I disagree with as neighbors.
oh and rachel, in #86…you do realize that the sheer volume of pinup-type images, sexual objectification, and more controversial tattoos in modblog should all, technically, qualify as sexist?
Personally I do not mind having people I disagree with as neighbors.
Hanargh-
“So yah, none of us were in that war. But I like to assume we’ve all been educated to some degree about the horrors that went on. The totenkopf is a horrible image which probably brings pain to Jewish people even today due what it symbolises. I also know it’s still widely used in ‘white pride’ groups, who show it off proudly. The girl claims to have Jewish family. If that’s the case, she should have left the irony to Shakespeare.”
I’m saying since none of us actually experienced what happened between 1939 and 1945 its pretentious at best to “interpret” what those people may have felt.
Her ancestory, to me, doesn’t even matter. It’s her body and if she choses to have that tattoo, more power to her. I suggest if you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t get one.
“As for ‘meaning’, throw your xs and your ys out of the window because when someone gets a tattoo there is as much importance on how other people INTERPRET it, as to what it means to them personally. She’s pretty dumb if she thought people would appreciate, or even understand, the humor, irony, or whatever she was aiming for.”
-So we should get tattooed for what others will interpret and think?
“Interpretation is key. Say if you went out and got the words ‘HIV positive’ tattooed on your forearm. It could mean something completely different to you in your head or in your circle of friends. Or you could get it to be ironic because I’m you’re HIV positive… but to the outside world, there’d be a HUGE stigma attached to it. Did she really understand how upset it might make a very wide and varied community, let alone the general public?”
-Jonathen Davis (the lead singer of the American rock band Korn) has HIV tattooed on his arm in nold black letters. Yet he is not (to my knowledge) HIV positive.
-Maybe she wants exactly this sort of reaction. Or maybe she’s just trolling all the sensitive types. Either way, I’m sure (if she in fact intended the tattoo to be “racist” or “offensive”) that she doesn’t give a fuck about the “very wide and varied community s” opinion. And, clearly it does not take much to shock or offend the “general public”.
“I’m all for people getting the tattoos they want and like. I have no problem with people getting ’slut’ tattooed above their genitals, or even pornographic images… they’re not to my taste but if it makes people happy and they don’t go around showing it off to kids then fine. What I do object to is such a blase attitute towards a symbol which represents years of murder.”
-Does that symbol represent years of murder to her though?
“I’d also like to know why on her iam page she lists her tattoo as ’skull on my sternum’. Why couldn’t she be a bit more specific and write ‘totenkopf on my sternum’ if she knew exactly what it was and all its political and social implications?”
-Maybe that’s not what it is to her.
Hanargh-
“So yah, none of us were in that war. But I like to assume we’ve all been educated to some degree about the horrors that went on. The totenkopf is a horrible image which probably brings pain to Jewish people even today due what it symbolises. I also know it’s still widely used in ‘white pride’ groups, who show it off proudly. The girl claims to have Jewish family. If that’s the case, she should have left the irony to Shakespeare.”
I’m saying since none of us actually experienced what happened between 1939 and 1945 its pretentious at best to “interpret” what those people may have felt.
Her ancestory, to me, doesn’t even matter. It’s her body and if she choses to have that tattoo, more power to her. I suggest if you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t get one.
“As for ‘meaning’, throw your xs and your ys out of the window because when someone gets a tattoo there is as much importance on how other people INTERPRET it, as to what it means to them personally. She’s pretty dumb if she thought people would appreciate, or even understand, the humor, irony, or whatever she was aiming for.”
-So we should get tattooed for what others will interpret and think?
“Interpretation is key. Say if you went out and got the words ‘HIV positive’ tattooed on your forearm. It could mean something completely different to you in your head or in your circle of friends. Or you could get it to be ironic because I’m you’re HIV positive… but to the outside world, there’d be a HUGE stigma attached to it. Did she really understand how upset it might make a very wide and varied community, let alone the general public?”
-Jonathen Davis (the lead singer of the American rock band Korn) has HIV tattooed on his arm in nold black letters. Yet he is not (to my knowledge) HIV positive.
-Maybe she wants exactly this sort of reaction. Or maybe she’s just trolling all the sensitive types. Either way, I’m sure (if she in fact intended the tattoo to be “racist” or “offensive”) that she doesn’t give a fuck about the “very wide and varied community s” opinion. And, clearly it does not take much to shock or offend the “general public”.
“I’m all for people getting the tattoos they want and like. I have no problem with people getting ’slut’ tattooed above their genitals, or even pornographic images… they’re not to my taste but if it makes people happy and they don’t go around showing it off to kids then fine. What I do object to is such a blase attitute towards a symbol which represents years of murder.”
-Does that symbol represent years of murder to her though?
“I’d also like to know why on her iam page she lists her tattoo as ’skull on my sternum’. Why couldn’t she be a bit more specific and write ‘totenkopf on my sternum’ if she knew exactly what it was and all its political and social implications?”
-Maybe that’s not what it is to her.
Hanargh-
“So yah, none of us were in that war. But I like to assume we’ve all been educated to some degree about the horrors that went on. The totenkopf is a horrible image which probably brings pain to Jewish people even today due what it symbolises. I also know it’s still widely used in ‘white pride’ groups, who show it off proudly. The girl claims to have Jewish family. If that’s the case, she should have left the irony to Shakespeare.”
I’m saying since none of us actually experienced what happened between 1939 and 1945 its pretentious at best to “interpret” what those people may have felt.
Her ancestory, to me, doesn’t even matter. It’s her body and if she choses to have that tattoo, more power to her. I suggest if you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t get one.
“As for ‘meaning’, throw your xs and your ys out of the window because when someone gets a tattoo there is as much importance on how other people INTERPRET it, as to what it means to them personally. She’s pretty dumb if she thought people would appreciate, or even understand, the humor, irony, or whatever she was aiming for.”
-So we should get tattooed for what others will interpret and think?
“Interpretation is key. Say if you went out and got the words ‘HIV positive’ tattooed on your forearm. It could mean something completely different to you in your head or in your circle of friends. Or you could get it to be ironic because I’m you’re HIV positive… but to the outside world, there’d be a HUGE stigma attached to it. Did she really understand how upset it might make a very wide and varied community, let alone the general public?”
-Jonathen Davis (the lead singer of the American rock band Korn) has HIV tattooed on his arm in nold black letters. Yet he is not (to my knowledge) HIV positive.
-Maybe she wants exactly this sort of reaction. Or maybe she’s just trolling all the sensitive types. Either way, I’m sure (if she in fact intended the tattoo to be “racist” or “offensive”) that she doesn’t give a fuck about the “very wide and varied community s” opinion. And, clearly it does not take much to shock or offend the “general public”.
“I’m all for people getting the tattoos they want and like. I have no problem with people getting ’slut’ tattooed above their genitals, or even pornographic images… they’re not to my taste but if it makes people happy and they don’t go around showing it off to kids then fine. What I do object to is such a blase attitute towards a symbol which represents years of murder.”
-Does that symbol represent years of murder to her though?
“I’d also like to know why on her iam page she lists her tattoo as ’skull on my sternum’. Why couldn’t she be a bit more specific and write ‘totenkopf on my sternum’ if she knew exactly what it was and all its political and social implications?”
-Maybe that’s not what it is to her.
Ok Timmy. I think this’ll be my last post, because I really cba. And it’s Christmas.
1. It is not pretentious to assume that the events between 1939 and 1945 were, at very least, horrific, and in my opinion should be treated with respect. Perhaps you and I have been reading from different text books, or have been taught differently. For most of this year I’ve been studying mass graves, some of them dating back to world war 2, and damnit, call me boring but it really doesn’t tickle me to imagine such events, despite my side of dark humor – which often manages to escape me at the most inappropriate times.
2. I never said we should get tattooed for what others think. Ultimately we should do if for ourselves, but we should also keep in mind that other people will and can interpret away when they look at us. If you’re a year away from qualifying as a lawyer, the last thing you do is go out and get your throat tattooed. In the same way, if you become immersed in a community which on the whole, strongly opposes nazi culture, it’s a bit of a bad idea to go out and get a totenkopf tattoo (assuming you’re not a racist) unless you strongly like debate or the thought of being ostracized. It’s just common sense.
3. You missed the point here completely. My point was, you don’t have to be HIV positive to get the tattoo, but you have to stop and think, gee, some people may THINK I am if they see it on my arm. And then you’d think, ‘well, people have strong viewpoints on HIV. They may not want to come near me!’ Etc. Just like this girl should have thought, ‘gee, someone might think I’m a racist if I have a huge SS symbol between my boobies! They may be nasty to me!’ She or her friends have no right to whine about her being labelled a racist on those grounds. Also, the thing with Jonathan Davis, it’s a bit different for a very famous rock star to get something like that tattooed when he’s very much in the limelight and everyone knows that he is in fact, not HIV positive. It’s not as Joe Bloggs off the street could go out and do it, due to status, we’d get a totally different reaction. Way to be contraversial, good to see we can still rely on korn after all these years!
4.”Does that symbol represent years of murder to her though?”
Maybe not, but you can’t go and park in a disabled spot and then say “Oh wait, this symbol doesn’t represent a disabled spot TO ME”. It’s pretty tough to take a symbol known to millions as something, and then swap the meaning around as you please, and not expect everyone to fall in line with you. You can’t go through the dictionary and change the meaning of words depending on what they may ‘represent’ to you. It’s a very widely known symbol. As Shannon said, it’s line for line. If she wanted a ‘skull’ she could have easily googled around a bit and found a nice one, without the political implications. Maybe she doesn’t think of it as a totenkopf. But isn’t that a bit like going out and getting a cat tattooed on my chest but then saying, ‘actually, that’s not a cat TO ME’…?
5. As for what the community thinks, and your line about sensitive types, I honestly couldn’t give a toss about what she does to her body. It’s her body, and if she wants to display what the mainstream know as a racist symbol then, woah, be my guest. Power to her, let her liberate her freedom of choice through expression of tattoos. Etc etc. But if she was doing it to be a troll, or to give a great big ‘Fuck You’ to the world (what a rebel), then from where I stand, there are a lot of more intelligent ways she could have done that.
Merry Christmas.
Ok Timmy. I think this’ll be my last post, because I really cba. And it’s Christmas.
1. It is not pretentious to assume that the events between 1939 and 1945 were, at very least, horrific, and in my opinion should be treated with respect. Perhaps you and I have been reading from different text books, or have been taught differently. For most of this year I’ve been studying mass graves, some of them dating back to world war 2, and damnit, call me boring but it really doesn’t tickle me to imagine such events, despite my side of dark humor – which often manages to escape me at the most inappropriate times.
2. I never said we should get tattooed for what others think. Ultimately we should do if for ourselves, but we should also keep in mind that other people will and can interpret away when they look at us. If you’re a year away from qualifying as a lawyer, the last thing you do is go out and get your throat tattooed. In the same way, if you become immersed in a community which on the whole, strongly opposes nazi culture, it’s a bit of a bad idea to go out and get a totenkopf tattoo (assuming you’re not a racist) unless you strongly like debate or the thought of being ostracized. It’s just common sense.
3. You missed the point here completely. My point was, you don’t have to be HIV positive to get the tattoo, but you have to stop and think, gee, some people may THINK I am if they see it on my arm. And then you’d think, ‘well, people have strong viewpoints on HIV. They may not want to come near me!’ Etc. Just like this girl should have thought, ‘gee, someone might think I’m a racist if I have a huge SS symbol between my boobies! They may be nasty to me!’ She or her friends have no right to whine about her being labelled a racist on those grounds. Also, the thing with Jonathan Davis, it’s a bit different for a very famous rock star to get something like that tattooed when he’s very much in the limelight and everyone knows that he is in fact, not HIV positive. It’s not as Joe Bloggs off the street could go out and do it, due to status, we’d get a totally different reaction. Way to be contraversial, good to see we can still rely on korn after all these years!
4.”Does that symbol represent years of murder to her though?”
Maybe not, but you can’t go and park in a disabled spot and then say “Oh wait, this symbol doesn’t represent a disabled spot TO ME”. It’s pretty tough to take a symbol known to millions as something, and then swap the meaning around as you please, and not expect everyone to fall in line with you. You can’t go through the dictionary and change the meaning of words depending on what they may ‘represent’ to you. It’s a very widely known symbol. As Shannon said, it’s line for line. If she wanted a ‘skull’ she could have easily googled around a bit and found a nice one, without the political implications. Maybe she doesn’t think of it as a totenkopf. But isn’t that a bit like going out and getting a cat tattooed on my chest but then saying, ‘actually, that’s not a cat TO ME’…?
5. As for what the community thinks, and your line about sensitive types, I honestly couldn’t give a toss about what she does to her body. It’s her body, and if she wants to display what the mainstream know as a racist symbol then, woah, be my guest. Power to her, let her liberate her freedom of choice through expression of tattoos. Etc etc. But if she was doing it to be a troll, or to give a great big ‘Fuck You’ to the world (what a rebel), then from where I stand, there are a lot of more intelligent ways she could have done that.
Merry Christmas.
Ok Timmy. I think this’ll be my last post, because I really cba. And it’s Christmas.
1. It is not pretentious to assume that the events between 1939 and 1945 were, at very least, horrific, and in my opinion should be treated with respect. Perhaps you and I have been reading from different text books, or have been taught differently. For most of this year I’ve been studying mass graves, some of them dating back to world war 2, and damnit, call me boring but it really doesn’t tickle me to imagine such events, despite my side of dark humor – which often manages to escape me at the most inappropriate times.
2. I never said we should get tattooed for what others think. Ultimately we should do if for ourselves, but we should also keep in mind that other people will and can interpret away when they look at us. If you’re a year away from qualifying as a lawyer, the last thing you do is go out and get your throat tattooed. In the same way, if you become immersed in a community which on the whole, strongly opposes nazi culture, it’s a bit of a bad idea to go out and get a totenkopf tattoo (assuming you’re not a racist) unless you strongly like debate or the thought of being ostracized. It’s just common sense.
3. You missed the point here completely. My point was, you don’t have to be HIV positive to get the tattoo, but you have to stop and think, gee, some people may THINK I am if they see it on my arm. And then you’d think, ‘well, people have strong viewpoints on HIV. They may not want to come near me!’ Etc. Just like this girl should have thought, ‘gee, someone might think I’m a racist if I have a huge SS symbol between my boobies! They may be nasty to me!’ She or her friends have no right to whine about her being labelled a racist on those grounds. Also, the thing with Jonathan Davis, it’s a bit different for a very famous rock star to get something like that tattooed when he’s very much in the limelight and everyone knows that he is in fact, not HIV positive. It’s not as Joe Bloggs off the street could go out and do it, due to status, we’d get a totally different reaction. Way to be contraversial, good to see we can still rely on korn after all these years!
4.”Does that symbol represent years of murder to her though?”
Maybe not, but you can’t go and park in a disabled spot and then say “Oh wait, this symbol doesn’t represent a disabled spot TO ME”. It’s pretty tough to take a symbol known to millions as something, and then swap the meaning around as you please, and not expect everyone to fall in line with you. You can’t go through the dictionary and change the meaning of words depending on what they may ‘represent’ to you. It’s a very widely known symbol. As Shannon said, it’s line for line. If she wanted a ‘skull’ she could have easily googled around a bit and found a nice one, without the political implications. Maybe she doesn’t think of it as a totenkopf. But isn’t that a bit like going out and getting a cat tattooed on my chest but then saying, ‘actually, that’s not a cat TO ME’…?
5. As for what the community thinks, and your line about sensitive types, I honestly couldn’t give a toss about what she does to her body. It’s her body, and if she wants to display what the mainstream know as a racist symbol then, woah, be my guest. Power to her, let her liberate her freedom of choice through expression of tattoos. Etc etc. But if she was doing it to be a troll, or to give a great big ‘Fuck You’ to the world (what a rebel), then from where I stand, there are a lot of more intelligent ways she could have done that.
Merry Christmas.
i dont condone racism in any way, so dont attack me for asking this but,
would you consider a confederate flag racist? given the south supported slavery, but it does also stand for much more than that. opinions?
i dont condone racism in any way, so dont attack me for asking this but,
would you consider a confederate flag racist? given the south supported slavery, but it does also stand for much more than that. opinions?
i dont condone racism in any way, so dont attack me for asking this but,
would you consider a confederate flag racist? given the south supported slavery, but it does also stand for much more than that. opinions?
i tend to get overly-defensive when people attack my best friend for any reason, but in this case i don’t think that’s really necessary. i know you’re all going to put your two cents in on how you view this topic and you’re entitled to (that’s why this forum is still open), but some of these statements are just.. petty and embarrassing for the lot of you. To the few people I used to have some respect for due to their open-mindedness and understanding: It seems common courtesy not to accuse someone of being a racist whore when you had never spoken to, or met them, especially in a situation she didn’t choose to put herself in.
Shannon Larratt on August 16th, 2006 at 12:08 pm:
“…honestly, hiding the symbols and history of fascism is the best way to have fascism RETURN. One, because anything that’s suppressed tends to grow, and two, because those who try and erase history are doomed to repeat it.”
i tend to get overly-defensive when people attack my best friend for any reason, but in this case i don’t think that’s really necessary. i know you’re all going to put your two cents in on how you view this topic and you’re entitled to (that’s why this forum is still open), but some of these statements are just.. petty and embarrassing for the lot of you. To the few people I used to have some respect for due to their open-mindedness and understanding: It seems common courtesy not to accuse someone of being a racist whore when you had never spoken to, or met them, especially in a situation she didn’t choose to put herself in.
Shannon Larratt on August 16th, 2006 at 12:08 pm:
“…honestly, hiding the symbols and history of fascism is the best way to have fascism RETURN. One, because anything that’s suppressed tends to grow, and two, because those who try and erase history are doomed to repeat it.”
i tend to get overly-defensive when people attack my best friend for any reason, but in this case i don’t think that’s really necessary. i know you’re all going to put your two cents in on how you view this topic and you’re entitled to (that’s why this forum is still open), but some of these statements are just.. petty and embarrassing for the lot of you. To the few people I used to have some respect for due to their open-mindedness and understanding: It seems common courtesy not to accuse someone of being a racist whore when you had never spoken to, or met them, especially in a situation she didn’t choose to put herself in.
Shannon Larratt on August 16th, 2006 at 12:08 pm:
“…honestly, hiding the symbols and history of fascism is the best way to have fascism RETURN. One, because anything that’s suppressed tends to grow, and two, because those who try and erase history are doomed to repeat it.”