Update: First, the person in this procedure healed fine and is very happy. Second, I want to make it clear that while this procedure looks very intense, it’s probably less intense as a procedure than some large skin removal work, transscrotal piercings, implants, tongue splitting, and all the other procedures generally accepted by the body modification community.
Ok, this is a pretty gory entry. I apologize for that. But I think it’s important to emphasize that when you do large scale scarification (or sometimes small scale), sometimes the keloid grows out of control and starts getting very uncomfortable, restricting mobility, and so on. This piece was only about a month old in the photos below (it was done by a “well known body modification artist” who’s gonna stay unnamed because that’s not the point of the entry) and the customer was quite unhappy and wanted it dealt with.
Samppa Von Cyborg and Lukas Zpira got together to help him as much as they could. They felt that all of it was cut too deep, and did their best to excise the tissue, although the centre keloid was not removed (I’m assuming it was adhered right to the cartilage at bottom of the sternum). Starting with some exploratory cuts:
Mostly off and looking very gory:
As you can see, quite a chasm of tissue was removed! Check out the fatty tissue below:
Once stitched up, I can’t imagine how relived and happy the customer must have been. It’s a pretty intense removal, and a lot to go through, but Lukas and Samppa did a nice job restoring him… Hopefully the removal doesn’t have similar keloiding issues (sometimes it’s a problem that snowballs).
Finally, the gross out shot of the removed tissue:
Please take scarification seriously!!!
Comments
1,136 responses to “When scarification goes bad”
hahah, Cere is hillarious (#335)
i wouldnt miss an episode!
what will they cut up next??
all in good fun guys.
hahah, Cere is hillarious (#335)
i wouldnt miss an episode!
what will they cut up next??
all in good fun guys.
“A good artist has to have a certain understanding of how and why the procedure works and what will change how it works for each person, TYPICALLY the doctor just knows it will (or assumes) and does it without considering that each body is different and will respond differently, not really thinking about what outside forces could affect the results (much like I believe that the movement of the area added significantly to the keloid buildup and that the medical corset will greatly help)”
Regarding this quote from Kiara (with whom I agree about education):
Yes a good artist will take the hows and whys of any procedure into consideration. But are all or even most practitioners aware of the lines of tension associated with the body? Do they really know about wound healing and why an incision heals differently from a skin removal? Which is one of many reasons a vertical cut in the situation in question healed much better than the original procedure. Do practitioners know the embryological reasons that procedures done on the midline anterior aspect of the body tend to heal well and carry less risk than a similar procedure done elsewhere?
If so, great! But….
Yes, doctors study this extensively!! And procedures are planned and/or traditionally done in a certain manner to take advantage of this knowledge. Doctors don’t randomly pick a place to cut and just cut there. And if a less than ideal location is forced, the lines of tension are taken into account with incision placement to decrease wound contracture. (And generally keloiding, as excessive scarring is generally not a desirable side effect in the medical situation).
I am not a doctor that practices on humans, by choice I am a veterinarian. And yes, veterinary school is harder to get into than medical school. I do skin removals on my patients on a weekly to daily basis. I have to think a lot about the stresses that will affect an incision line before I cut and I know “human doctors” do too. I also have to deal with accidental skin removals, and see the healing effects and I know how these things are typically going to heal.
Because of my knowledge, I feel that I can recommend that skin removals not be done. I can’t force it, nor would I support legislation against it. I have no problems with cutting or branding as forms of scarification. I love the aesthetic of modified people, even though other than tattooing that is not a choice I would make for myself.
Can we please try to open a dialogue with the medical community to help to make all procedures safe and successful rather than just hurling insults?
I have tried to avoid ranting and throwing around a lot of esoteric medical knowledge, but ultimately have failed miserably. Thanks for reading.
“A good artist has to have a certain understanding of how and why the procedure works and what will change how it works for each person, TYPICALLY the doctor just knows it will (or assumes) and does it without considering that each body is different and will respond differently, not really thinking about what outside forces could affect the results (much like I believe that the movement of the area added significantly to the keloid buildup and that the medical corset will greatly help)”
Regarding this quote from Kiara (with whom I agree about education):
Yes a good artist will take the hows and whys of any procedure into consideration. But are all or even most practitioners aware of the lines of tension associated with the body? Do they really know about wound healing and why an incision heals differently from a skin removal? Which is one of many reasons a vertical cut in the situation in question healed much better than the original procedure. Do practitioners know the embryological reasons that procedures done on the midline anterior aspect of the body tend to heal well and carry less risk than a similar procedure done elsewhere?
If so, great! But….
Yes, doctors study this extensively!! And procedures are planned and/or traditionally done in a certain manner to take advantage of this knowledge. Doctors don’t randomly pick a place to cut and just cut there. And if a less than ideal location is forced, the lines of tension are taken into account with incision placement to decrease wound contracture. (And generally keloiding, as excessive scarring is generally not a desirable side effect in the medical situation).
I am not a doctor that practices on humans, by choice I am a veterinarian. And yes, veterinary school is harder to get into than medical school. I do skin removals on my patients on a weekly to daily basis. I have to think a lot about the stresses that will affect an incision line before I cut and I know “human doctors” do too. I also have to deal with accidental skin removals, and see the healing effects and I know how these things are typically going to heal.
Because of my knowledge, I feel that I can recommend that skin removals not be done. I can’t force it, nor would I support legislation against it. I have no problems with cutting or branding as forms of scarification. I love the aesthetic of modified people, even though other than tattooing that is not a choice I would make for myself.
Can we please try to open a dialogue with the medical community to help to make all procedures safe and successful rather than just hurling insults?
I have tried to avoid ranting and throwing around a lot of esoteric medical knowledge, but ultimately have failed miserably. Thanks for reading.
Happen to agree with you on everything. The goverment is there for the people, not the people for the goverment. And we live in a world, more and more so, where these principles are being betrayed by the very peole that we ellect to go and ‘protect’ us…
Happen to agree with you on everything. The goverment is there for the people, not the people for the goverment. And we live in a world, more and more so, where these principles are being betrayed by the very peole that we ellect to go and ‘protect’ us…
Holy shit… how deep was the initial scarification?? I’ve never seen any scar work that bad or that deep before… Still, I wouldn’t want anyone but Lukas Zpira or Samppa helping me out with something like that, if it went that far. They have the best knowledge and expertise in that area.. I’d trust them over a doctor even.
Holy shit… how deep was the initial scarification?? I’ve never seen any scar work that bad or that deep before… Still, I wouldn’t want anyone but Lukas Zpira or Samppa helping me out with something like that, if it went that far. They have the best knowledge and expertise in that area.. I’d trust them over a doctor even.
Kaira, I’ll tell you what the hang-up with certification is all about. It has nothing to do with any inherent superiority of doctors over mod practitioners (or vice versa), but rather protecting the bodmod community from a legal standpoint. Another way it might be a benefit is that it could prevent inexperienced or ill-trained mod practitioners from performing mods clearly out of their league, thereby possibly endangering their clients’ health and/or lives.
I agree that hospitals are not the cleanest places all of the time. I also agree that doctors are never guaranteed to have compassion, ability or even ethics. I think it’s awful that it’s perfectly legal for me to have plastic implanted into my breasts, should I wish it, and were the wounds to become infected, a doctor would treat me appropriately, yet if I wanted to have silicone or steel implanted into my arm, a doctor would not only refuse, but probably recommend psychiatric treatment. I think it’s equally awful that many politicians, who have no medical OR modification experience, decide which and which are not acceptable procedures, in many cases.
I don’t mean to suggest that Lukas or Samppa (or anyone else) should require full medical training in order to continue their practices. However, to ensure the safety, sterility and even the availablity of these procedures in the future, some sort of regulation could be invaluable; it could make it a hell of a lot easier to find a heavy mod practitioner. As an analogy, think of the difference between pre-Roe vs Wade US and today: not every state in the US allows abortion, but at least women no longer have to go underground to seek out a practitioner who may potentially endanger their life; they can use the internet to freely seek out legal resources. We can’t even do that with BME most of the time – in the QOD, for example, when someone asks for the name of a heavy mod practitioner, their question is usually deflected, and rarely, if ever, is contact info provided.
I am not a mod practitioner, nor a doctor, or a politician, a lawer, etc., and therefore do not know the best way to go about creating certification, what it should entail, or who should be administering these standards. But I am in favour of anything that brings body modification closer to mainstream legitimacy, and more importantly, entitles practitioners and clients to the same legal protection as other invasive/surgical practices.
Kaira, I’ll tell you what the hang-up with certification is all about. It has nothing to do with any inherent superiority of doctors over mod practitioners (or vice versa), but rather protecting the bodmod community from a legal standpoint. Another way it might be a benefit is that it could prevent inexperienced or ill-trained mod practitioners from performing mods clearly out of their league, thereby possibly endangering their clients’ health and/or lives.
I agree that hospitals are not the cleanest places all of the time. I also agree that doctors are never guaranteed to have compassion, ability or even ethics. I think it’s awful that it’s perfectly legal for me to have plastic implanted into my breasts, should I wish it, and were the wounds to become infected, a doctor would treat me appropriately, yet if I wanted to have silicone or steel implanted into my arm, a doctor would not only refuse, but probably recommend psychiatric treatment. I think it’s equally awful that many politicians, who have no medical OR modification experience, decide which and which are not acceptable procedures, in many cases.
I don’t mean to suggest that Lukas or Samppa (or anyone else) should require full medical training in order to continue their practices. However, to ensure the safety, sterility and even the availablity of these procedures in the future, some sort of regulation could be invaluable; it could make it a hell of a lot easier to find a heavy mod practitioner. As an analogy, think of the difference between pre-Roe vs Wade US and today: not every state in the US allows abortion, but at least women no longer have to go underground to seek out a practitioner who may potentially endanger their life; they can use the internet to freely seek out legal resources. We can’t even do that with BME most of the time – in the QOD, for example, when someone asks for the name of a heavy mod practitioner, their question is usually deflected, and rarely, if ever, is contact info provided.
I am not a mod practitioner, nor a doctor, or a politician, a lawer, etc., and therefore do not know the best way to go about creating certification, what it should entail, or who should be administering these standards. But I am in favour of anything that brings body modification closer to mainstream legitimacy, and more importantly, entitles practitioners and clients to the same legal protection as other invasive/surgical practices.
mä oon jussin kans samaa mieltä. mikä vittu teitä amerikkalaisia oikein vaivaa?
cere: jos sä alat pilkkaamaan mua ja lukasia huonosta englannin taidosta, niin opettele nyt ensin edes kirjoittamaan mun nimi oikein ennen kuin alat vittuilemaan.
And Shannon: i think modbolg should be for members only. this kind information should give to professional ppl only. I thought that it was good idea to share information to all ppl, but it seems that here ppl are too stupid or they’re not ready for this kind “hardcore” stuff. I’m happy to share my knowledge, but not with idiots as i hate stupid ppl.
here’s really america central way to think. If we start thinking that way then all body modification procedures should be banned as in america, there’s states where all kind body modification is still illegal.
eiköhän tämä ollut tässä. Hajaantukaa, täällä ei ole enää mitään nähtävää. Sulkekaa näyttöpäätteenne ja hankkikaa ihan oikea elämä:)
mä oon jussin kans samaa mieltä. mikä vittu teitä amerikkalaisia oikein vaivaa?
cere: jos sä alat pilkkaamaan mua ja lukasia huonosta englannin taidosta, niin opettele nyt ensin edes kirjoittamaan mun nimi oikein ennen kuin alat vittuilemaan.
And Shannon: i think modbolg should be for members only. this kind information should give to professional ppl only. I thought that it was good idea to share information to all ppl, but it seems that here ppl are too stupid or they’re not ready for this kind “hardcore” stuff. I’m happy to share my knowledge, but not with idiots as i hate stupid ppl.
here’s really america central way to think. If we start thinking that way then all body modification procedures should be banned as in america, there’s states where all kind body modification is still illegal.
eiköhän tämä ollut tässä. Hajaantukaa, täällä ei ole enää mitään nähtävää. Sulkekaa näyttöpäätteenne ja hankkikaa ihan oikea elämä:)
tyhmiä ihmisiä on joka puolella. suomessa niitä on vain paljon vähemmän, koska teitä on siellä noin 5 miljoonaa. älkää tehkö samoja virheitä kuin amerikkalaiset tekevät lokerisoimalla yhteen kategoriaan.
Regardless, you’re right, there is something seriously wrong with most americans. Americans are constantly giving freedom away in the name of ‘safety.’ There is no line that you can draw that states, this is a necessary protective law, and this is an infringement of freedom. It’s all one big grey area, we just happen to have our grey area moving farther and farther to the right as we lose our freedoms one by one. I am making the decision to move to Finland after I complete my degree because I find the laws here unnecessarily restrictive.
I am incredibly lucky to have a job that doesn’t care about body mods, but it doesn’t escape me that some customers I come into contact with suddenly don’t want to deal with me because of my tattoos.
tyhmiä ihmisiä on joka puolella. suomessa niitä on vain paljon vähemmän, koska teitä on siellä noin 5 miljoonaa. älkää tehkö samoja virheitä kuin amerikkalaiset tekevät lokerisoimalla yhteen kategoriaan.
Regardless, you’re right, there is something seriously wrong with most americans. Americans are constantly giving freedom away in the name of ‘safety.’ There is no line that you can draw that states, this is a necessary protective law, and this is an infringement of freedom. It’s all one big grey area, we just happen to have our grey area moving farther and farther to the right as we lose our freedoms one by one. I am making the decision to move to Finland after I complete my degree because I find the laws here unnecessarily restrictive.
I am incredibly lucky to have a job that doesn’t care about body mods, but it doesn’t escape me that some customers I come into contact with suddenly don’t want to deal with me because of my tattoos.
Hi Shannon,
I read your letter with interest because I am in the medical profession – and I speak from 30 years of experience in surgery. I am a surgical nurse, an RN, and it’s the only kind of nursing I’ve done.
I respect the right of anyone over 18 to give informed consent for body modification.
Now, having said that, I will tell you there are certain situations I believe requiring some consideration: if parents, for example, want to seek advice for any procedure done for their child, isn’t it in their best interest to have a licensed practitioner perform it? Perhaps I misunderstood the scope of your letter, and if I did, then my apologies.
I am not claiming all MDs or even all surgeons are alike. Some, indeed, are better than others for many reasons, and not purely technical reasons at that. My unfortunate experience has led me to believe that the public sometimes makes mistakes with regard to the kind of practitioner hired to assist them….licensing came into being out of a need to protect, define, advance and not restrict, the practice of good/appropriate medicine. The people being protected are folks like you and me. When a procedure goes wrong, professional boards of practice are around to look into causes, and examine the causes for multiple complaints filed about individuals. I do not know if there is a professional board for body modification practitioners, and if there is, I applaud such a group. It is vital to have standards of practice and be self-policing so poor performers are weeded out. I think Kat said it best,”But I am in favour of anything that brings body modification closer to mainstream legitimacy, and more importantly, entitles practitioners and clients to the same legal protection as other invasive/surgical practices.” I share her concern that,” another way it might be a benefit is that it could prevent inexperienced or ill-trained mod practitioners from performing mods clearly out of their league, thereby possibly endangering their clients’ health and/or lives.”
— Indeed, this is a basic concern of all caregivers, and one of the basic principles of medicine: first do no harm.
When someone approaches a bodymod practitioner (or healthcare worker) for assistance, there is an unspoken understanding that we help, and not harm the client.
People have died during ‘simple’ office procedures.
When performing heavy body modification, for example, is resuscitation equipment available? Why or/why not?
Shock can occur from pain, fear, or simply an individual’s reaction to the experience of being cut.
I’m not bringing up this question to antagonize anyone: these are just concerns and questions I have, being from the ‘medical- mainstream’ side of experience.
I’m glad some useful dialogue is happening here.
Cynthia
Hi Shannon,
I read your letter with interest because I am in the medical profession – and I speak from 30 years of experience in surgery. I am a surgical nurse, an RN, and it’s the only kind of nursing I’ve done.
I respect the right of anyone over 18 to give informed consent for body modification.
Now, having said that, I will tell you there are certain situations I believe requiring some consideration: if parents, for example, want to seek advice for any procedure done for their child, isn’t it in their best interest to have a licensed practitioner perform it? Perhaps I misunderstood the scope of your letter, and if I did, then my apologies.
I am not claiming all MDs or even all surgeons are alike. Some, indeed, are better than others for many reasons, and not purely technical reasons at that. My unfortunate experience has led me to believe that the public sometimes makes mistakes with regard to the kind of practitioner hired to assist them….licensing came into being out of a need to protect, define, advance and not restrict, the practice of good/appropriate medicine. The people being protected are folks like you and me. When a procedure goes wrong, professional boards of practice are around to look into causes, and examine the causes for multiple complaints filed about individuals. I do not know if there is a professional board for body modification practitioners, and if there is, I applaud such a group. It is vital to have standards of practice and be self-policing so poor performers are weeded out. I think Kat said it best,”But I am in favour of anything that brings body modification closer to mainstream legitimacy, and more importantly, entitles practitioners and clients to the same legal protection as other invasive/surgical practices.” I share her concern that,” another way it might be a benefit is that it could prevent inexperienced or ill-trained mod practitioners from performing mods clearly out of their league, thereby possibly endangering their clients’ health and/or lives.”
— Indeed, this is a basic concern of all caregivers, and one of the basic principles of medicine: first do no harm.
When someone approaches a bodymod practitioner (or healthcare worker) for assistance, there is an unspoken understanding that we help, and not harm the client.
People have died during ‘simple’ office procedures.
When performing heavy body modification, for example, is resuscitation equipment available? Why or/why not?
Shock can occur from pain, fear, or simply an individual’s reaction to the experience of being cut.
I’m not bringing up this question to antagonize anyone: these are just concerns and questions I have, being from the ‘medical- mainstream’ side of experience.
I’m glad some useful dialogue is happening here.
Cynthia
samppa, which idiots are you referring to? i believe some of the people you disagree with in this forum are members of bme. i’m not saying you deserve to be attacked in any way by anyone, you don’t, but you can’t filter idiots so easily, although i’m sure it would be nice.
i’m 100% against making modblog password protected, if that ever happens, why shouldn’t bme be entirely censored aswell? …
i joined bme/iam almost 8 years ago, and i was able to do that because it was available to non-members. you’d really risk losing a lot of great people, otherwise. it’s not for everyone, but again, i respect anyone’s right to walk away from here if they can’t handle it. the first time i came to modblog i was surprised at some commentary being as judgemental and silly as it was, but it reminded me that there’s a whole world of people who still don’t know/understand/respect modifications and/or completely hate them. almost like walking into the past or something? i spend too much time in IAM as it is.. it’s both sad and amusing to me at the same time realizing some people are disgusted about it.
Malicat, i feel the same everyday at my job, they respect the piercings i choose to have because i am a hard worker and i get things done.. but there is always a thought in the back of my mind that the client i’m dealing with isn’t taking me seriously because i have 4 holes in my face. but, i won’t take them out or cover them up.
samppa, which idiots are you referring to? i believe some of the people you disagree with in this forum are members of bme. i’m not saying you deserve to be attacked in any way by anyone, you don’t, but you can’t filter idiots so easily, although i’m sure it would be nice.
i’m 100% against making modblog password protected, if that ever happens, why shouldn’t bme be entirely censored aswell? …
i joined bme/iam almost 8 years ago, and i was able to do that because it was available to non-members. you’d really risk losing a lot of great people, otherwise. it’s not for everyone, but again, i respect anyone’s right to walk away from here if they can’t handle it. the first time i came to modblog i was surprised at some commentary being as judgemental and silly as it was, but it reminded me that there’s a whole world of people who still don’t know/understand/respect modifications and/or completely hate them. almost like walking into the past or something? i spend too much time in IAM as it is.. it’s both sad and amusing to me at the same time realizing some people are disgusted about it.
Malicat, i feel the same everyday at my job, they respect the piercings i choose to have because i am a hard worker and i get things done.. but there is always a thought in the back of my mind that the client i’m dealing with isn’t taking me seriously because i have 4 holes in my face. but, i won’t take them out or cover them up.
Before I read Shannon’s editorial and harked back to this modblog entry, my initial reaction to the latest BME poll was “here we go, another black-and-white choice where the answer is really a shade of grey”.
The question of non-medically qualified people carrying out ‘medical’ procedures is something I have considered more carefully since applying to study medicine myself. I understand that people do not feel they have the right to raise such ideas with medical professionals, and certainly in the UK where I live, I strongly believe that these procedures have no place on the NHS (though I am sure that if someone presented to A&E with complications, the NHS would be obliged to sort these out).
I am not convinced that the methods practised by some of these extreme modification artists are satisfactory. The sterility of the initial procedure is a serious consideration (though to be fair I’ve seen doctors make some serious faux pas of that front before), but often these practitioners tour, which is not ideal. Can email exchanges truly constitute full counselling of the ‘mod-ee’ about the potential short- and long-term issues surrounding the procedure? How long do they counsel face-to-face before deciding that the individual understands the procedure and is able to look after it? Can they check the basic haematological parameters – full blood counts, clotting etc, that should be carried out before any surgical procedure? I am also concerned that the practitioners are long gone if there are complications afterwards. Nor are they able to prescribe any prophylactic drugs that might be needed in the healing period. A surgical procedure does not end with the final cut and/or wound closure. It’s a much longer process.
Before I read Shannon’s editorial and harked back to this modblog entry, my initial reaction to the latest BME poll was “here we go, another black-and-white choice where the answer is really a shade of grey”.
The question of non-medically qualified people carrying out ‘medical’ procedures is something I have considered more carefully since applying to study medicine myself. I understand that people do not feel they have the right to raise such ideas with medical professionals, and certainly in the UK where I live, I strongly believe that these procedures have no place on the NHS (though I am sure that if someone presented to A&E with complications, the NHS would be obliged to sort these out).
I am not convinced that the methods practised by some of these extreme modification artists are satisfactory. The sterility of the initial procedure is a serious consideration (though to be fair I’ve seen doctors make some serious faux pas of that front before), but often these practitioners tour, which is not ideal. Can email exchanges truly constitute full counselling of the ‘mod-ee’ about the potential short- and long-term issues surrounding the procedure? How long do they counsel face-to-face before deciding that the individual understands the procedure and is able to look after it? Can they check the basic haematological parameters – full blood counts, clotting etc, that should be carried out before any surgical procedure? I am also concerned that the practitioners are long gone if there are complications afterwards. Nor are they able to prescribe any prophylactic drugs that might be needed in the healing period. A surgical procedure does not end with the final cut and/or wound closure. It’s a much longer process.
(the piercings, not the client :p)
(the piercings, not the client :p)
@Malicat, reading your text this quotation came up my mind:
“The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.” – Benjamin Franklin
I think it’s not ok to exclude people from a discussion just because they don’t have the same opinion as you.
@Malicat, reading your text this quotation came up my mind:
“The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.” – Benjamin Franklin
I think it’s not ok to exclude people from a discussion just because they don’t have the same opinion as you.
modblog shouldnt be for members only, first of all because this doesnt mean that it is gonna be viewd just by “professional” people or people that are more able to understand it than people who are not IAM members (there are tons of IAM members that can be more close-minded and assholes than people outside IAM..)…then, because I think that a large amount of people should have the chance to talk about these topics also if they’re not tattooed or scarred or whatever: people might be just interested in this kind of culture and the fact that they have here a good chance to read about it and talk about it its absolutely necessary, in my point of view. censorship is not the solution, isnt it?
a part from this, Samppa you can’t expect everyone supporting your work, and you should be “openminded” enough to understand other points of view and discuss with people in a more relaxed way 🙂 the fact that many people here dont underestand the technical problems of yr work in this case, and other more partiucular details of yr work, doesnt mean they dont have the right to tell what they think, in order to create a discussion that, in my very personal point of view, has been really interesting and useful, for ME. the fact that you submitted the pictures here on bme should have let u think people could also have bad reactions…
the point is: stop talking about gossip and other weird stuff and keep talking about what we could do to make our “community” always much better, and if this means having to deal with rude closeminded assholes, well, thats part of the game…just sit and relax, and making modblog only for an elìte its not the solution.
(and yeah, my english is fake, Im italian!)
modblog shouldnt be for members only, first of all because this doesnt mean that it is gonna be viewd just by “professional” people or people that are more able to understand it than people who are not IAM members (there are tons of IAM members that can be more close-minded and assholes than people outside IAM..)…then, because I think that a large amount of people should have the chance to talk about these topics also if they’re not tattooed or scarred or whatever: people might be just interested in this kind of culture and the fact that they have here a good chance to read about it and talk about it its absolutely necessary, in my point of view. censorship is not the solution, isnt it?
a part from this, Samppa you can’t expect everyone supporting your work, and you should be “openminded” enough to understand other points of view and discuss with people in a more relaxed way 🙂 the fact that many people here dont underestand the technical problems of yr work in this case, and other more partiucular details of yr work, doesnt mean they dont have the right to tell what they think, in order to create a discussion that, in my very personal point of view, has been really interesting and useful, for ME. the fact that you submitted the pictures here on bme should have let u think people could also have bad reactions…
the point is: stop talking about gossip and other weird stuff and keep talking about what we could do to make our “community” always much better, and if this means having to deal with rude closeminded assholes, well, thats part of the game…just sit and relax, and making modblog only for an elìte its not the solution.
(and yeah, my english is fake, Im italian!)
#358 / Malicat:
Totta puhut, en tarkoittanutkaan lokeroida ketään tai mitään kansakuntaa kokonaisuudessaan.
Tämän palstan jenkkikommenteista voi vain vetää suuntaa-antavia johtopäätöksiä. Liekö kateutta, puritaanisuutta vai…?
Suvaitsevuus kunniaan ja antaa bodmod-ammattilaisten hoitaa hommansa.
#358 / Malicat:
Totta puhut, en tarkoittanutkaan lokeroida ketään tai mitään kansakuntaa kokonaisuudessaan.
Tämän palstan jenkkikommenteista voi vain vetää suuntaa-antavia johtopäätöksiä. Liekö kateutta, puritaanisuutta vai…?
Suvaitsevuus kunniaan ja antaa bodmod-ammattilaisten hoitaa hommansa.
I feel ruled out, can someone translat this?
I feel ruled out, can someone translat this?
#366 Jasmin
Se on suomenkieltä ja täysin kieliopin ja lauserakenteiden osalta täydellistä kieltä. Pitäisihän jenkkien nyt tämä käsittää.
Miksi sitten arvostella ulkomaalaisen englanninkielen taitoa jos itse ei osaa yhtään ko. kirjoittajan äidinkieltä!
#366 Jasmin
Se on suomenkieltä ja täysin kieliopin ja lauserakenteiden osalta täydellistä kieltä. Pitäisihän jenkkien nyt tämä käsittää.
Miksi sitten arvostella ulkomaalaisen englanninkielen taitoa jos itse ei osaa yhtään ko. kirjoittajan äidinkieltä!
Jussi: Yeah, sanoisin että suurin osa siitä on puritanismia. Perheeni oli kauhuissaan kun kerroin heille
suomalaisesta saunasta, eikä lämpötila ollut suurin väristysten aiheuttaja. Jo pelkkä ajatus yhteissaunasta pelottaa suurinta osaa amerikkalaisia. Kuitenkin, vihaan sitä että tyypit joilla on lävistyksiä ja tatuointeja, rupeavat
tappelemaan keskenään. Meillä on tarpeeksi tekemistä ‘normaaleiden’ ihmisten kanssa.
And being rude to someone because of their grammar when they are a non-english speaker is ridiculous, especially when you don’t even speak their language. When I visit Finland, even strangers are kind to me when I speak Finnish. I realize my accent is awful, and my sentence structure is lousy, but they are all endlessly patient with me, and frequently revert to english to help me out. If you want to be a jackass to someone who isn’t using proper english grammar, try targetting people who speak english as their mother tongue and just destroy the language out of sheer laziness.
Americans seem to despise things that are different as a whole. I had a customer trying to describe me to one of my employees, and when he mentioned my tattoos, he said, ‘what is this world coming to?’ We have enough ‘normal’ people who despise us for what we choose to do to our bodies. Do we really want to start fighting against each other as well? There is simply no need to be petty.
And Samppa, I hit your web page last night, and I think your work is absolutely gorgeous. Have you done any work that combined scarification and tattooing? I’m suddenly debating some work on my right arm that uses both.
Jussi: Yeah, sanoisin että suurin osa siitä on puritanismia. Perheeni oli kauhuissaan kun kerroin heille
suomalaisesta saunasta, eikä lämpötila ollut suurin väristysten aiheuttaja. Jo pelkkä ajatus yhteissaunasta pelottaa suurinta osaa amerikkalaisia. Kuitenkin, vihaan sitä että tyypit joilla on lävistyksiä ja tatuointeja, rupeavat
tappelemaan keskenään. Meillä on tarpeeksi tekemistä ‘normaaleiden’ ihmisten kanssa.
And being rude to someone because of their grammar when they are a non-english speaker is ridiculous, especially when you don’t even speak their language. When I visit Finland, even strangers are kind to me when I speak Finnish. I realize my accent is awful, and my sentence structure is lousy, but they are all endlessly patient with me, and frequently revert to english to help me out. If you want to be a jackass to someone who isn’t using proper english grammar, try targetting people who speak english as their mother tongue and just destroy the language out of sheer laziness.
Americans seem to despise things that are different as a whole. I had a customer trying to describe me to one of my employees, and when he mentioned my tattoos, he said, ‘what is this world coming to?’ We have enough ‘normal’ people who despise us for what we choose to do to our bodies. Do we really want to start fighting against each other as well? There is simply no need to be petty.
And Samppa, I hit your web page last night, and I think your work is absolutely gorgeous. Have you done any work that combined scarification and tattooing? I’m suddenly debating some work on my right arm that uses both.
jo, ou das verstohni leider ned. aber es schint ou kei anderi sproch z si 🙁
jo, ou das verstohni leider ned. aber es schint ou kei anderi sproch z si 🙁
“But body modification is not just a cultural movement — it is an industry. You buy scalpels, you charge for tattoo work, you purchase silicone and teflon, you open up shops and studios, you go on tours around the world doing work; this is not a knock — it’s just a fact.”
come on jordan , you again … and to say this kind of bulshit . you should think a bit before talk and talking bad about what people are doing .
la modification corporelle n est pas une industrie, c est un mouvement culturelle, un art de vivre et parfois meme un art tout simplement .
avant de faire des modifications corporelles, j etait peintre … je veux dire artiste peintre . expositions etc . j achetais des pinceaux, de la peinture, des toiles, j avais ouvert un atelier ou je pouvais pratiquer comme l on fait avant moi et le font encore tout les artistes peintre , voir tout les artistes en general, qui bosse sur des format important et qui ne permettent pas que l on travailler chez sois . je partais egalement en “tour” pour mes expositions . et evidement je vendais le fruit de mon travail …
rien de different dans le fond entre ma peinture et mes modifications corporelles , rien non plus de different avec les photos que je realise et qui ne sons pour moi qu une facon differente d exprimer ma vision du monde et mon desir de participer a son evolution. juste differents mediums .
pour ce qui est de mettre modblog derriere un code ca ne changera rien a moins de verifier le niveau de pertinance face a l inconus des protagonistes . et visiblement a voir ce genre de commentaire fait par des personnes qui sont partie prenantes de cette comunaute, je pense que cela ne fera que deplacer le probleme, sans le regler . dans tout les milieux sociaux culturels il y a des cons … a mon grand desespoir . j avais en effet mis pas mal d espoir dans ce milieu .
pour ce qui est des reglementations je me suis deja largement exprime sur le sujet … mais pour info, cette procedure a etait faite dans un pays ou, celon mon avocat, elle est legale jusqu a preuve du contraire. et si on doit faire nos procedure en afrique ou au nepal pour avoir le drois de les faire on le fera . personellement je m en bat l os de pratiquer au states ou ailleur . et les gens qui on vraiment envis qu on pratique sur eux sont toujours pret a se deplacer …
sinon jordan, tu a finalement trouve a quoi servais ta bitte ?!
“But body modification is not just a cultural movement — it is an industry. You buy scalpels, you charge for tattoo work, you purchase silicone and teflon, you open up shops and studios, you go on tours around the world doing work; this is not a knock — it’s just a fact.”
come on jordan , you again … and to say this kind of bulshit . you should think a bit before talk and talking bad about what people are doing .
la modification corporelle n est pas une industrie, c est un mouvement culturelle, un art de vivre et parfois meme un art tout simplement .
avant de faire des modifications corporelles, j etait peintre … je veux dire artiste peintre . expositions etc . j achetais des pinceaux, de la peinture, des toiles, j avais ouvert un atelier ou je pouvais pratiquer comme l on fait avant moi et le font encore tout les artistes peintre , voir tout les artistes en general, qui bosse sur des format important et qui ne permettent pas que l on travailler chez sois . je partais egalement en “tour” pour mes expositions . et evidement je vendais le fruit de mon travail …
rien de different dans le fond entre ma peinture et mes modifications corporelles , rien non plus de different avec les photos que je realise et qui ne sons pour moi qu une facon differente d exprimer ma vision du monde et mon desir de participer a son evolution. juste differents mediums .
pour ce qui est de mettre modblog derriere un code ca ne changera rien a moins de verifier le niveau de pertinance face a l inconus des protagonistes . et visiblement a voir ce genre de commentaire fait par des personnes qui sont partie prenantes de cette comunaute, je pense que cela ne fera que deplacer le probleme, sans le regler . dans tout les milieux sociaux culturels il y a des cons … a mon grand desespoir . j avais en effet mis pas mal d espoir dans ce milieu .
pour ce qui est des reglementations je me suis deja largement exprime sur le sujet … mais pour info, cette procedure a etait faite dans un pays ou, celon mon avocat, elle est legale jusqu a preuve du contraire. et si on doit faire nos procedure en afrique ou au nepal pour avoir le drois de les faire on le fera . personellement je m en bat l os de pratiquer au states ou ailleur . et les gens qui on vraiment envis qu on pratique sur eux sont toujours pret a se deplacer …
sinon jordan, tu a finalement trouve a quoi servais ta bitte ?!
In response to post 370:
My french is not great so I may have made mistakes but I am mainly concerned with the portion you posted in English.
Regardless of other isues you may have with Jordan, there is nothing Bullshit about his statement descirbing body modification as an industry. The body modificaiton industry exists – plain and sinmp[le as he described. There is a business at play providing a service – that does not mean, and he did not imply, that it is solely a business. There is art and culture movement in play as well.
Being an artist is not a golden shield. There is an art industry. Body modification is special to many of us but it is not special in the sense you seem to imply, at the end of the day it is a form of artistic expression we hold dear but that does not exempt, especially when practiced as a service industry (providing tattooing, scarification, et al) from the strictures placed on every other such form
“la modification corporelle n est pas une industrie, c est un mouvement culturelle, un art de vivre et parfois meme un art tout simplement .”
It is not even close to being that simple. Body modification is an art form that is undeniably practiced as an industry – Come on Lukas, its your business. You know better this better than most. Save the grandiose rhetoric for art manifestos and exhibition statements, in a serious pragmatic discussion it is simply hyperbole and unrealistic to deny that body modification is an industry – come to terms with it, the painters, sculptors, etc have (hundreds to thousands of years ago)
In response to post 370:
My french is not great so I may have made mistakes but I am mainly concerned with the portion you posted in English.
Regardless of other isues you may have with Jordan, there is nothing Bullshit about his statement descirbing body modification as an industry. The body modificaiton industry exists – plain and sinmp[le as he described. There is a business at play providing a service – that does not mean, and he did not imply, that it is solely a business. There is art and culture movement in play as well.
Being an artist is not a golden shield. There is an art industry. Body modification is special to many of us but it is not special in the sense you seem to imply, at the end of the day it is a form of artistic expression we hold dear but that does not exempt, especially when practiced as a service industry (providing tattooing, scarification, et al) from the strictures placed on every other such form
“la modification corporelle n est pas une industrie, c est un mouvement culturelle, un art de vivre et parfois meme un art tout simplement .”
It is not even close to being that simple. Body modification is an art form that is undeniably practiced as an industry – Come on Lukas, its your business. You know better this better than most. Save the grandiose rhetoric for art manifestos and exhibition statements, in a serious pragmatic discussion it is simply hyperbole and unrealistic to deny that body modification is an industry – come to terms with it, the painters, sculptors, etc have (hundreds to thousands of years ago)
ok . so everithing is just a business …
thats again an american way of seeing things .
sorry if you dont like the way I express my point of view. thats not a “grandiose rhetoric” . it s just french language. but yes I agrea that it s a little bit more “rich” than english to express an idea .
ok . so everithing is just a business …
thats again an american way of seeing things .
sorry if you dont like the way I express my point of view. thats not a “grandiose rhetoric” . it s just french language. but yes I agrea that it s a little bit more “rich” than english to express an idea .
I have to totally agree with what Jordan is saying. Although I do use scalpels for many things in my work, I do think that there should be some legal standing on it, and that not everybody should be allowed to just pick something up and decide to do it. Call me hypocritical if you want, and even though in the end I may end up losing business or not being able to do some of the things I do day to day, I think there should be some laws put in place for what we as practitioners can and cannot do.
As for people being able to do what they want with their bodies….. I think there is a very fine line between personal freedoms and safety. I don’t think that saying i would rather have this guy remove this as opposed to a trained doctor because you want to and thats that. I don’t think thats responsible, and I don’t think it’s ethical of the people performing the procedure. We are not doctors, we’re artists or piercers, or whatever you choose to call yourself. But I do think we have a responsibility to prove to peopel that our industry has ethics and guidelines and the more we see procedures like this pop up, the less credibility we will have.
I have to totally agree with what Jordan is saying. Although I do use scalpels for many things in my work, I do think that there should be some legal standing on it, and that not everybody should be allowed to just pick something up and decide to do it. Call me hypocritical if you want, and even though in the end I may end up losing business or not being able to do some of the things I do day to day, I think there should be some laws put in place for what we as practitioners can and cannot do.
As for people being able to do what they want with their bodies….. I think there is a very fine line between personal freedoms and safety. I don’t think that saying i would rather have this guy remove this as opposed to a trained doctor because you want to and thats that. I don’t think thats responsible, and I don’t think it’s ethical of the people performing the procedure. We are not doctors, we’re artists or piercers, or whatever you choose to call yourself. But I do think we have a responsibility to prove to peopel that our industry has ethics and guidelines and the more we see procedures like this pop up, the less credibility we will have.
In reply to 344 and informed consent… just to be devil’s advocate…
To be honest is informed consent an issue here? It’s not like you can haul a medical negligence case against someone who isn’t on the medical register!
In reply to 344 and informed consent… just to be devil’s advocate…
To be honest is informed consent an issue here? It’s not like you can haul a medical negligence case against someone who isn’t on the medical register!
lukas say it in eglish please for the common non-american/non-english people that actually dont speak french… 🙂
lukas say it in eglish please for the common non-american/non-english people that actually dont speak french… 🙂
quand samppa ou moi meme utilisons l anglais il est trop incorect pour qu il sois acceptable par vous, quand on parle francais c est trop proche de “la rhetorique grandiose” (oups), quand on utilise le finois, c est trop bizzare. c est quoi le language officiel sur bme ?!
c est quoi cette facon de s attaquer au gens par raport a leur language ? l anglais et la langue la plus utilisee sur le net pour des raisons pratiques … ca ne veux pas dire que c est la langue officielle partout sur la planette … enfin pas encore en tout cas. il reste quelques autres centaines de langues et au moins autant de dialectes . et pour info la langue la plus parlee au monde est pour le moment le chinois . on peut peut etre comencer par s exprimer dans cette langue au moins on sera tous au meme niveau .
quand samppa ou moi meme utilisons l anglais il est trop incorect pour qu il sois acceptable par vous, quand on parle francais c est trop proche de “la rhetorique grandiose” (oups), quand on utilise le finois, c est trop bizzare. c est quoi le language officiel sur bme ?!
c est quoi cette facon de s attaquer au gens par raport a leur language ? l anglais et la langue la plus utilisee sur le net pour des raisons pratiques … ca ne veux pas dire que c est la langue officielle partout sur la planette … enfin pas encore en tout cas. il reste quelques autres centaines de langues et au moins autant de dialectes . et pour info la langue la plus parlee au monde est pour le moment le chinois . on peut peut etre comencer par s exprimer dans cette langue au moins on sera tous au meme niveau .